| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | 泰戈尔《飞鸟集》一句诗句误译的分析和对翻译的启示 Thread poster: nigerose
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ysun 
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
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| Totally agree | Jun 18, 2012 |
Apparently, it is the “precipice”, not “love”, that is high. If “high” referred to “love” as the topic starter suggested, it wouldn’t make any sense to seat love upon a precipice. If love were high, it would still be high even if people seat their love on the bottom of Turpan Depression (吐鲁番盆地).
Phil Hand wrote:
不断的分析该句话的语法解决不了问题。用常识去理解它，一下子就破解了：什么是高？悬崖很高。原译文是正确的
ShelleyX wrote: I agree, and I don't think they refer to love as "high" in Tagore's time. Not even today when some words are so casually used. wherestip wrote: nigerose, Poetry, by its very nature, is open to different interpretations. I'm sorry to say that I tend to disagree with your analysis, especially solely from a grammatical standpoint. 
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
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| Just for the sake of discussion | Jun 18, 2012 |
From the discussion, we got three sentences here. Their patterns seem to be similar, but they are quite different.
1. Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high. (from Tagore)
2. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. (from the Bible)
3. They did not come to the hospital because they wanted to see me. (recommended by the topic starter)
The second sentence was quoted by the topic starter from this link:
http://bible.cc/1_john/2-21.htm
New International Version (©1984)
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
Meanwhile, please also see the English Standard Version just below the above version:
English Standard Version (©2001)
I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
It is true that the sentence quoted by the topic starter could be re-written as below without change in its meaning:
“I write to you not because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.”
Now, the question is if Tagore’s sentence could also be re-written in the same way without change in its meaning. Could it be re-written as below?
Do seat your love upon a precipice not because it is high.
or
Seat your love upon a precipice not because it is high.
Compared with the essential idea "Do not seat" Tagore expressed, do the above two re-written sentences have the same meaning as the original one? Do they make any sense? Apparently, the first and second sentences are not in the same pattern.
As to the third sentence, unlike the second sentence, it is very ambiguous since no context is provided. It could be explained in many different ways depending on different scenarios. So, the third sentence is automatically out of the question.
[Edited at 2012-06-19 02:00 GMT]
| | | | nigerose
China
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TOPIC STARTER
jyuan_us wrote: nigerose wrote: Phil Hand wrote:
For goodness sake. This argument cannot be resolved through grammar. Grammar is chronically underspecified - I can see at least three types of grammatical ambiguity and at least four types of lexical ambiguity in here.
Gram 1) seat 的宾语
Do not seat (your love) upon a precipice because it is high.
Do not seat (your love upon a precipice) because it is high.
Gram 2) not 的辖域
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice because it is high.)
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.
Gram 3) because 的辖域
(Do not seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.
Do not (seat your love upon a precipice) because it is high.
Lex 1) seat: 摆放 还是 使入座
Lex 2) love: 爱情 还是 情人
Lex 3) it: love 还是 precipice 还是 其他
Lex 4) high: 高 还是 醉 还是 被刺激
12个单词可以形成很多不同的符合语法规则的含义。比如说：
【日出时，悬崖上的情人站立。】不要因为它（太阳）升高了而让你的悬崖上的情人坐下。
虽然上述的解读完全符合英文的语法规则，但我们可以确定，没有人会这么理解这句话，因为有更加符合常理的解读。从语用学的角度来看，这么稀奇的解读是不可能的。（Grice）
所以呢，不断的分析该句话的语法解决不了问题。用常识去理解它，一下子就破解了：什么是高？悬崖很高。原译文是正确的：
不要为了追高而把爱情推到悬崖峭壁上。 love还有情人的意思，这个我没有想到。可能泰戈尔的这句诗句不止一种解释，这也是语法不确定性所达到的效果。 Goodbye my love, 我的愛人。
love作为“爱人“的意思，我想我应该学过，但我承认我当初在分析泰戈尔的这句诗句时根本没想到。学习了！
我并非不抱着学习的态度来讨论。但明眼人能看出，这个论坛的学术气氛很不正常，怪不得没什么人参与讨论。我从此也将隐身。Farewell！
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 02:55
Chinese to English
| Actually, I have to defend nigerose a bit here... | Jun 19, 2012 |
ysun wrote:
Apparently, it is the “precipice”, not “love”, that is high. If “high” referred to “love” as the topic starter suggested, it wouldn’t make any sense to seat love upon a precipice. If love were high, it would still be high even if people seat their love on the bottom of Turpan Depression (吐鲁番盆地).
As I wrote, the obvious interpretation of this line is to understand "high" as referring to the precipice.
But, nigerose is right on two points:
1. The sentence is very very grammatically ambiguous. Nigerose's analysis is grammatically very possible.
2. "High" can also be applied to "love". It's a bit unusual, but "high + passion(s)" is a standard collocation (close to nigerose's 爱情炽热), and in a poem, adapting "passion...high" to "love...high" is definitely possible. (This meaning of "high" would not be confused with 海拔, so there's no contradiction as ysun sees.)
And it also makes a kind of sense. When I think of high passions (or "high love"), the connotations are recklessness, bravado, adventure, danger... it's actually quite a good semantic fit for the edge of a precipice.
So the nigerose interpretation would work something like this:
"Your love is high, is it? I suppose that makes you want to climb mountains, to soar over the land, to stand on the edge of the precipice? Well, don't! Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high."
The problem is that this love (passions)-high collocation is "crowded out" by the more obvious precipice-high collocation. So for me, the nigerose reading is not possible. But I'm not the only reader in the world. You can't put numbers to these things, but let me suggest these as indicative:
precipice-high reading: 不要为了追高而把爱情推到悬崖峭壁上 95%
love-high reading: 不要因为你的爱情炽热而使它(你的爱情)置于危险的边缘 4.99%
other grammatically possible readings, e.g.不要因为它（太阳）升高了而让你的悬崖上的情人坐下。 0.01%
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 02:55
Chinese to English
Two things:
1. This sentence is itself a translation. Can we find the original Bengali and have a look?
2. In a translation, you definitely shouldn't shut out the most likely reading. But if you think the ambiguity is real, then keep it in the translation.
高是高，但不能把爱情推倒峭壁上
Does that work? Can we do better?
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 13:55
Chinese to English
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nigerose wrote:
偶然发现，泰戈尔《飞鸟集》诗句“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”被严重误译。网络查询发现被翻译成“不要因为峭壁是高的，便让你的爱情坐在峭壁上”。Google发现，“繁体中文和简体中文网页中，约有 4,950 项符合 ‘不要因为峭壁是高的，便让你的爱情坐在峭壁上 ’的查询结果(2008年1月26日上午)。可见这个错误译文已经在网络上广为传播了。
Phil,
That doesn't mean that he has to summarily dismiss all other interpretations.
The thing that I find most unpalatable is that he used Bible quotations to insult others who don't agree with his analysis. I think that is totally uncalled for.
Actually, I find it extremely offensive.
[Edited at 2012-06-19 04:05 GMT]
| | | | nigerose
China
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TOPIC STARTER
wherestip wrote:
nigerose wrote:
偶然发现，泰戈尔《飞鸟集》诗句“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”被严重误译。网络查询发现被翻译成“不要因为峭壁是高的，便让你的爱情坐在峭壁上”。Google发现，“繁体中文和简体中文网页中，约有 4,950 项符合 ‘不要因为峭壁是高的，便让你的爱情坐在峭壁上 ’的查询结果(2008年1月26日上午)。可见这个错误译文已经在网络上广为传播了。
Phil, But keep in mind, he denied the possibility of any other interpretation other than his own with no reservation throughout the discussion of this thread. The thing that I find most unpalatable is that he used Bible quotations to insult others. I think that is totally uncalled for.
再次声明，我引用：
————————————————————————
http://bible.kuanye.net/old/z/652.htm
和合本 箴24:19不要为作恶的心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人， KJV
英 箴24:19Fret not thyself because of evil [men], neither be thou envious at the wicked; NIV
英 箴24:19Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of the wicked,
吕振中 箴24:19不要为了作恶的而心怀不平；不要羡慕恶人；
新译本 箴24:19不要因作恶的人心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人。
现代译 箴24:19不要因作恶的人得意而心怀不平；不要羡慕他们。
当代译 箴24:19不要因恶人的所为而忿忿不平，也不要羡慕他；
思高本 箴24:19对作恶的人，你不要动怒；对乖戾之徒，也不必嫉妒；
文理本 箴24:19勿缘为非者而烦扰、勿于作恶者生嫉妒
————————————————————————————
这完全是为了分析not...because的语法现象。将Do not fret because of evil men 与“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”进行比较，可以发现两者的语法结构很相似。你可以说Do not fret because of evil men，但不能说Do fret, not because of eveil men。
尽管使用not...because的句子很多，但经典的权威性的而且还有几个权威中文译本的句子，我目前只能找到这个句子。如果有人想与这个句子所表达的内容对号入座，我无法阻止他这么做。
唱歌吧：
http://www.fictionpress.com/s/2368537/1/Love_is_high
Love is high.
Oh God, I'm an extremist; idealist
who sees the world tinted and perfumed
pink.
That must be the color of
love.
-:- -:- -:-
I can't seem to stop decorating
your name with sparkles and
silver sharpies,
which reflect that
royal hue.
Let me worship you.
-:- -:- -:-
Love must be when you're drunken-high,
because what I'm feeling isn't
really reality.
I've been cloud-hopping; I've crossed nine.
I'm jumping.
I'm falling.
-:- -:- -:-
I want to feel rock bottom.
From this point,
it doesn't look so bad.
-:- -:- -:-
I guess I expect too much from
the inner-workings of my head.
I'll be dead before you
ever see me
tinted pink.
(I'll settle for you kissing my grave.)
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 13:55
Chinese to English
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nigerose wrote: 再次声明，我引用： ———————————————————————— http://bible.kuanye.net/old/z/652.htm 和合本 箴24:19不要为作恶的心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人， KJV 英 箴24:19Fret not thyself because of evil [men], neither be thou envious at the wicked; NIV 英 箴24:19Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of the wicked, 吕振中 箴24:19不要为了作恶的而心怀不平；不要羡慕恶人； 新译本 箴24:19不要因作恶的人心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人。 现代译 箴24:19不要因作恶的人得意而心怀不平；不要羡慕他们。 当代译 箴24:19不要因恶人的所为而忿忿不平，也不要羡慕他； 思高本 箴24:19对作恶的人，你不要动怒；对乖戾之徒，也不必嫉妒； 文理本 箴24:19勿缘为非者而烦扰、勿于作恶者生嫉妒 ———————————————————————————— 这完全是为了分析not...because的语法现象。将Do not fret because of evil men 与“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”进行比较，可以发现两者的语法结构很相似。你可以说Do not fret because of evil men，但不能说Do fret, not because of eveil men。 尽管使用not...because的句子很多，但经典的权威性的而且还有几个权威中文译本的句子，我目前只能找到这个句子。如果有人想与这个句子所表达的内容对号入座，我无法阻止他这么做。
nigerose,
You have to do a lot better than just make a declaration. Like I said, I was extremely offended by your quoting these lines yesterday.
There is absolutely no relationship between the Bible sentence that you quoted and the sentence we were discussing.
You say that the forum is not functioning as it is supposed to. It is exactly because of blatant insults like this.
[Edited at 2012-06-19 04:48 GMT]
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ysun
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
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| This is true | Jun 19, 2012 |
wherestip wrote:
nigerose,
You have to do a lot better than just make a declaration. Like I said, I was extremely offended by your quoting these lines yesterday.
There is absolutely no relationship between the Bible sentence that you quoted and the sentence we were discussing.
You say that the forum is not functioning as it is supposed to. It is exactly because of blatant insults like this.
ProZ.com is a well established website for highly educated professional translators. ProZ.com is totally different from many other translator’s websites where there are virtually no site rules and no rule enforcement at all. If a user is not prepared to obey the site rules of ProZ.com, he should go back to where he is used to.
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
+ ...
| High passions of love | Jun 19, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote: ysun wrote:
Apparently, it is the “precipice”, not “love”, that is high. If “high” referred to “love” as the topic starter suggested, it wouldn’t make any sense to seat love upon a precipice. If love were high, it would still be high even if people seat their love on the bottom of Turpan Depression (吐鲁番盆地). As I wrote, the obvious interpretation of this line is to understand "high" as referring to the precipice. ... 2. "High" can also be applied to "love". It's a bit unusual, but "high + passion(s)" is a standard collocation (close to nigerose's 爱情炽热), and in a poem, adapting "passion...high" to "love...high" is definitely possible. (This meaning of "high" would not be confused with 海拔, so there's no contradiction as ysun sees.) ... The problem is that this love (passions)-high collocation is "crowded out" by the more obvious precipice-high collocation. So for me, the nigerose reading is not possible.
Phil,
Thanks for your comment. I agree with what you said above about “high” in this context of Tagore’s poem. As we can see that almost all the colleagues who expressed they views in this discussion share the same opinion and the same common sense. In fact, I've never expected any outcomes more than that.
I also agree with your detailed analysis of high love passions in general. When people fall in love, if their passions are high, the passions would still be high even if they seat their love on the bottom of the Turpan Depression (吐鲁番盆地), and their passions would still be high even if they fall into the ice-cold water of the Atlantic Ocean in a disaster.
As a matter of fact, when I was writing about the Turpan Depression, this famous Chinese song emerged in my mind:
吐鲁番的葡萄熟了
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgGP-IGr00
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Nigerose以恶人为例，读来有些令人多想哦~ 要说这个中文论坛，真正的恶人其实不是你们大家这些天天关心论坛、热心发贴、各抒已见的高手和初涉全球翻译业务的新手，而是James和Adsion..呵~
wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote: 再次声明，我引用： ———————————————————————— http://bible.kuanye.net/old/z/652.htm 和合本 箴24:19不要为作恶的心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人， KJV 英 箴24:19Fret not thyself because of evil [men], neither be thou envious at the wicked; NIV 英 箴24:19Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of the wicked, 吕振中 箴24:19不要为了作恶的而心怀不平；不要羡慕恶人； 新译本 箴24:19不要因作恶的人心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人。 现代译 箴24:19不要因作恶的人得意而心怀不平；不要羡慕他们。 当代译 箴24:19不要因恶人的所为而忿忿不平，也不要羡慕他； 思高本 箴24:19对作恶的人，你不要动怒；对乖戾之徒，也不必嫉妒； 文理本 箴24:19勿缘为非者而烦扰、勿于作恶者生嫉妒 ———————————————————————————— 这完全是为了分析not...because的语法现象。将Do not fret because of evil men 与“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”进行比较，可以发现两者的语法结构很相似。你可以说Do not fret because of evil men，但不能说Do fret, not because of eveil men。 尽管使用not...because的句子很多，但经典的权威性的而且还有几个权威中文译本的句子，我目前只能找到这个句子。如果有人想与这个句子所表达的内容对号入座，我无法阻止他这么做。 nigerose, You have to do a lot better than just make a declaration. Like I said, I was extremely offended by your quoting these lines yesterday. There is absolutely no relationship between the Bible sentence that you quoted and the sentence we were discussing. You say that the forum is not functioning as it is supposed to. It is exactly because of blatant insults like this. [Edited at 2012-06-19 04:48 GMT]
| | | | nigerose
China
Local time: 02:55
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TOPIC STARTER
James_xia wrote: Nigerose以恶人为例，读来有些令人多想哦~ 要说这个中文论坛，真正的恶人其实不是你们大家这些天天关心论坛、热心发贴、各抒已见的高手和初涉全球翻译业务的新手，而是James和Adsion..呵~ wherestip wrote: nigerose wrote: 再次声明，我引用： ———————————————————————— http://bible.kuanye.net/old/z/652.htm 和合本 箴24:19不要为作恶的心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人， KJV 英 箴24:19Fret not thyself because of evil [men], neither be thou envious at the wicked; NIV 英 箴24:19Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of the wicked, 吕振中 箴24:19不要为了作恶的而心怀不平；不要羡慕恶人； 新译本 箴24:19不要因作恶的人心怀不平，也不要嫉妒恶人。 现代译 箴24:19不要因作恶的人得意而心怀不平；不要羡慕他们。 当代译 箴24:19不要因恶人的所为而忿忿不平，也不要羡慕他； 思高本 箴24:19对作恶的人，你不要动怒；对乖戾之徒，也不必嫉妒； 文理本 箴24:19勿缘为非者而烦扰、勿于作恶者生嫉妒 ———————————————————————————— 这完全是为了分析not...because的语法现象。将Do not fret because of evil men 与“Do not seat your love upon a precipice because it is high”进行比较，可以发现两者的语法结构很相似。你可以说Do not fret because of evil men，但不能说Do fret, not because of eveil men。 尽管使用not...because的句子很多，但经典的权威性的而且还有几个权威中文译本的句子，我目前只能找到这个句子。如果有人想与这个句子所表达的内容对号入座，我无法阻止他这么做。 nigerose, You have to do a lot better than just make a declaration. Like I said, I was extremely offended by your quoting these lines yesterday. There is absolutely no relationship between the Bible sentence that you quoted and the sentence we were discussing. You say that the forum is not functioning as it is supposed to. It is exactly because of blatant insults like this. [Edited at 2012-06-19 04:48 GMT]
呵呵。版主怎么会是恶人，恶人怎么能当版主。
这个句例，在语法上和译文权威性上都是极佳例子，只是“读来有些令人多想哦~” 。 很遗憾，我目前只能找到这个句子，本来别无他意。这个论坛只讨论语言形式，不讨论内容，请别多想。
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ysun
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
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James_xia wrote:
Nigerose以恶人为例，读来有些令人多想哦~ 要说这个中文论坛，真正的恶人其实不是你们大家这些天天关心论坛、热心发贴、各抒已见的高手和初涉全球翻译业务的新手，而是James和Adsion..呵~
James:
其实大家心里都有数。真正的恶人怎么会是你和 Adsion 呢？你们都是大好人。
明眼人一看就知道，那个所谓的“极佳例子”以及前一个同样引自圣经的例子，与大家所讨论的泰戈尔那句诗根本就是风马牛不相及。举这两个例子不是别有用心又是什么？
[Edited at 2012-06-20 08:14 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 13:55
English to Chinese
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在讨论翻译问题时，尤其是在遇到较难理解的英文句子时，最好能虚心地多听听别人的意见，尤其是 wherestip (Steve) 和 Phil 这样 native English speakers 的意见，必能收获良多。如果拒不接受人家正确的意见，吃亏的只会是自己。
[Edited at 2012-06-20 07:28 GMT]
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论坛有大家共同的参与才能振兴，无论水平高低都有权利发表一已之言。错误与否都不是最重要的，即使他/她的见解事实证明是最有深度和水平的，我相信也都不可能谁会想要把论坛变成‘一言堂’。如在一次讨论中偶有不妥处，发贴者不必妄自菲薄，大可虚其心受天下之善；有真知酌见的行家不妨笑伸一手，从讨论过程求得和谐认同的声音。
据在下略考，ProZ.com 中文论坛是全球同类专业翻译网站中难得拥有海量精品好贴的论坛。其中无数强贴是因为有众多行家和新手的热心参与才得以最后形成。争论起于各人见解的不同，万望各位同仁将争论限于话题本身，勿作不必要的话题外延伸。窃以为，好贴讨论宜止于求同存异方为上佳结局。
特此插上几句，还望大家相互多理解，遣词用语礼让三分为好！谢谢各位的友情谅解和对中文论坛的鼎力支持～
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » 泰戈尔《飞鸟集》一句诗句误译的分析和对翻译的启示 | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
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The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
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