Jun 13, 2010 20:58
13 yrs ago
3 viewers *
French term
morbleu!
French to English
Other
History
13th century interjection
Que l'on prépare mon cheval, morbleu!
Said by an impatient nobleman. Am looking for a 13th century equivalent in English. Dictionary gives "zounds!" or "gadzooks!". Can anyone confirm? No Chaucer on my bookshelf!
Said by an impatient nobleman. Am looking for a 13th century equivalent in English. Dictionary gives "zounds!" or "gadzooks!". Can anyone confirm? No Chaucer on my bookshelf!
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | in God's name |
Bourth (X)
|
| 3 +5 | godzounds! |
Rachel Fell
|
| 5 | Godzooks! |
Barbara Cochran, MFA
|
| 3 +1 | Lord Sake |
Verginia Ophof
|
| 4 | The Devil! |
Gad Kohenov
|
| 3 -1 | id |
florent40
|
Change log
Jun 13, 2010 21:03: Liliane Hatem changed "Language pair" from "French to English" to "English to French"
Jun 13, 2010 21:06: Liliane Hatem changed "Language pair" from "English to French" to "French to English"
Proposed translations
+1
14 hrs
Selected
in God's name
Further to my Discussion entry above and further research and reflection:
The article on juron et blasphème here :
http://revistas.ucm.es/fll/11399368/articulos/THEL0303220171...
seems to suggest, from what I read briefly, that early texts did not record bad language, even if it was spoken. There is reference in La Chanson de Roland, for example, to a Saracen "badmouthing" (saying mauvais mots in respect of Charlemagne, "the right hand of God"), for which the divine punishment was death (in battle), but the words themselves are not written down.
Quite possibly people DID use morbleu or zounds before they were first recorded, only no one was game to put it on record ...
Also, if we assume the Protestant way started to come into effect only after the death of Henry VIII in 1547, the euphemism "Zounds" may have been felt necessary only around then. Maybe previously they were perfectly happy to say "God's wounds" without fear of lightning bolts. I mean, we only say "Shhhhh-ugar!" or "Mmmmm-ince!" because we are thinking of the words we might otherwise say. So "Zounds" must have been a substitute for something that had been or could be said.
Go for "Get me my charger, in God's name!" (which, assuming the speaker is on the side of God, would not be insult or blasphemy, merely an invocation to act for the good of the Almighty).
The article on juron et blasphème here :
http://revistas.ucm.es/fll/11399368/articulos/THEL0303220171...
seems to suggest, from what I read briefly, that early texts did not record bad language, even if it was spoken. There is reference in La Chanson de Roland, for example, to a Saracen "badmouthing" (saying mauvais mots in respect of Charlemagne, "the right hand of God"), for which the divine punishment was death (in battle), but the words themselves are not written down.
Quite possibly people DID use morbleu or zounds before they were first recorded, only no one was game to put it on record ...
Also, if we assume the Protestant way started to come into effect only after the death of Henry VIII in 1547, the euphemism "Zounds" may have been felt necessary only around then. Maybe previously they were perfectly happy to say "God's wounds" without fear of lightning bolts. I mean, we only say "Shhhhh-ugar!" or "Mmmmm-ince!" because we are thinking of the words we might otherwise say. So "Zounds" must have been a substitute for something that had been or could be said.
Go for "Get me my charger, in God's name!" (which, assuming the speaker is on the side of God, would not be insult or blasphemy, merely an invocation to act for the good of the Almighty).
Note from asker:
| Thanks! No time to finish The Canterbury Tales (ME + modern English translation), and I'm sure that a lot of the old expletives just weren't written down, at least not in texts that one can access easily today! |
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "I didn't use your proposed translation (and I think something stronger than "in God's name" would be necessary), but all the explanations definitely helped!"
+1
8 mins
Verginia Ophof
Belize
Belize
Native in English
Specializes in field
Belize
Near Native Proficiency in Source langua
Native in: English
Works in: Portuguese to English, Dutch to English, French to English
Lord Sake
According to "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable"...
Blue murder. To scream or shout blue murder. Indicative of terror and alarm rather than real danger. It appears to be a play on the French expression "morbleu".
"Morbleu" is an obsolete curse. "Mor" is derived from "mort", death. The expression "morbleu" literally means "blue death". The word "blue" ("bleu") is used as a substitute for the word "God" ("dieu") in some French-language curses. For example, the expression "sacr� bleu", which remains in common use, literally means "sacred blue". It is more accurately rendered as "God damn".
I have never understood the connection between the colour blue ("bleu") and the sanctity of God (e.g., "sacr� bleu" in place of "sacr� dieu"). Perhaps it is no more complicated than the fact that "bleu" rhymes with "dieu".
In English, we find that the word "Heck" replaces "Hell" in curses and "Land sakes" replaces "Lord sakes" or "For the sake of the Lord".
Blue murder. To scream or shout blue murder. Indicative of terror and alarm rather than real danger. It appears to be a play on the French expression "morbleu".
"Morbleu" is an obsolete curse. "Mor" is derived from "mort", death. The expression "morbleu" literally means "blue death". The word "blue" ("bleu") is used as a substitute for the word "God" ("dieu") in some French-language curses. For example, the expression "sacr� bleu", which remains in common use, literally means "sacred blue". It is more accurately rendered as "God damn".
I have never understood the connection between the colour blue ("bleu") and the sanctity of God (e.g., "sacr� bleu" in place of "sacr� dieu"). Perhaps it is no more complicated than the fact that "bleu" rhymes with "dieu".
In English, we find that the word "Heck" replaces "Hell" in curses and "Land sakes" replaces "Lord sakes" or "For the sake of the Lord".
Reference:
-1
2 hrs
id
just to told you what i know, the blue is the color of the noble and the king, we said that he s got blue blood, means he is from noble family. So maybe the link between blue and god is there, the king was choose by god in old meaning. Hope you can understand what i said. Florent
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Hermeneutica
: With your entry *as an answer to the question* [how can "id" be the answer?] but you are completely right about the royal-divine connection and the colour blue. Post this as a "Discussion entry" perhaps?
6 hrs
|
1 day 1 hr
Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Laudable Lady Linguist
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 3 more.
Godzooks!
Much more common than "godzounds."
Note from asker:
| Thanks! Gadzooks or begad were tempting. |
+5
1 hr
Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Thorough, knowledgeable and resourceful
Native in: English (Variant: UK) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Italian to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
15
godzounds!
Came to mind...
Both sitter and artist were unhappy long before it was finished. Pearson Wright said he would have needed at least 12 sittings, but was refused any more time. Lucian Freud had a similar problem with his Jubilee portrait of the Queen.
At the end of the first sitting the prince inspected the work and exclaimed "godzooks" or "godzounds", the artist was too alarmed to remember which.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/25/monarchy.arts
...'Why, you old cuckold, blind cuckold,
can't you very well see?
These are three milking-cows,
my mother sent O me.'
'Heyday! Godzounds! Milking-cows with bridles and saddles on!
the like was never known!'...
...They are three roasting-spits,
my mother sent to me.'
'Heyday! Godzounds! Roasting spits with scabbards on!
the like was never known!'
[hm - chiild's ballad? There's a trad. Irish song that sounds like this story]
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Child's_Ballads/274
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Note added at 12 hrs (2010-06-14 09:16:45 GMT)
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thought I'd added these further refs. already, but anyway, here are some earlier terms:
by my soul
so God help me
for God's bones (though that may only be 14th C - Chaucer)
"The Vision of William concerning Pers the Plouhmon," written by Langland in the reign of Edward III., and commonly called "Piers Plowman," shows us that the English of that period thought it necessary to interlard their statements with copious expletives:
I have no peny, quod Pers, poletes to bugg (pullets to buy},
And I sigg (say), bi my soule, I have no salt bacon,
Ne no cokeneyes (fowles), bi Crist colopes to maken.
Passus VI.
And Glutton confesses [Passus V.]:
That I have trespassed with my tonge, I can noughte tell how oft,
Sworen Goddes soule, and so God me help, and Halidom,
There no need ne was, nyne hundreth tymes.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Some_English_Expletives
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2010-06-14 22:38:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
maybe "God help me", then
Both sitter and artist were unhappy long before it was finished. Pearson Wright said he would have needed at least 12 sittings, but was refused any more time. Lucian Freud had a similar problem with his Jubilee portrait of the Queen.
At the end of the first sitting the prince inspected the work and exclaimed "godzooks" or "godzounds", the artist was too alarmed to remember which.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/25/monarchy.arts
...'Why, you old cuckold, blind cuckold,
can't you very well see?
These are three milking-cows,
my mother sent O me.'
'Heyday! Godzounds! Milking-cows with bridles and saddles on!
the like was never known!'...
...They are three roasting-spits,
my mother sent to me.'
'Heyday! Godzounds! Roasting spits with scabbards on!
the like was never known!'
[hm - chiild's ballad? There's a trad. Irish song that sounds like this story]
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Child's_Ballads/274
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2010-06-14 09:16:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
thought I'd added these further refs. already, but anyway, here are some earlier terms:
by my soul
so God help me
for God's bones (though that may only be 14th C - Chaucer)
"The Vision of William concerning Pers the Plouhmon," written by Langland in the reign of Edward III., and commonly called "Piers Plowman," shows us that the English of that period thought it necessary to interlard their statements with copious expletives:
I have no peny, quod Pers, poletes to bugg (pullets to buy},
And I sigg (say), bi my soule, I have no salt bacon,
Ne no cokeneyes (fowles), bi Crist colopes to maken.
Passus VI.
And Glutton confesses [Passus V.]:
That I have trespassed with my tonge, I can noughte tell how oft,
Sworen Goddes soule, and so God me help, and Halidom,
There no need ne was, nyne hundreth tymes.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Some_English_Expletives
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day1 hr (2010-06-14 22:38:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
maybe "God help me", then
Note from asker:
| Thanks - "gadzooks" and "begad" were tempting, but given the context I left the 13th-century French and explained it as being more or less equivalent to "blast you!" |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
1 hr
|
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Thank you writeaway!
|
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| agree |
Lianne Wilson
8 hrs
|
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Thank you Lianne!
|
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| agree |
Bourth (X)
: "Zounds" is enough for me, being a contraction of "God's wounds", which "godzounds" (which I don't recall ever coming across in my readings of the classics) isn't exactly.
8 hrs
|
|
Yes, thanks Bourth, though seems something earlier is needed!
|
|
| agree |
John Detre
: this is certainly the right tone but I don't think zounds or any of its variants occurs in Chaucer -- according to the OED, first recorded use of zounds was in 1600 // I'm convinced
9 hrs
|
|
Thanks John, good point and thanks for checking - I've added a few earlier terms
|
|
| agree |
EJP
11 hrs
|
|
Thank you EJP:-)
|
5 hrs
Gad Kohenov
Israel
Israel
Native in French
Specializes in field
Israel
30 years of experience+satisfied clients
Native in: French , Hebrew
Works in: English to Hebrew, Hebrew to English, French to Hebrew, and 8 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
2
The Devil!
The Cassell's dictionary.
Zum Teufel! can be the German equivalent.
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Note added at 1514 days (2014-08-06 16:42:38 GMT) Post-grading
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morbleu
(in disuso) da "mort de Dieu", imprecazione usata nel XVII secolo
Zum Teufel! can be the German equivalent.
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Note added at 1514 days (2014-08-06 16:42:38 GMT) Post-grading
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morbleu
(in disuso) da "mort de Dieu", imprecazione usata nel XVII secolo
Note from asker:
| I did go down the path of "damnation" - thanks! |
Discussion
Strangely I recall morbleu from my reading of 17th-century literature, but not morbieu.
Maybe they were too afeared of the Almighty in earlier days to even think of using euphemisms. I certainly don't recall Chrétien de Troyes or Godefroi de Strasbourg using such language, and it is unlikely to have come up in early religious plays. All I can remember from La Chanson de Roland in the way of anything resembling jurons is something like "By my beard!" (Charlemagne speaking of course, whilst stroking same).
I suspect the best thing would be to put a relatively "timeless" word like "damn/ blast your eyes" (or is that too piratical?) "damn you", or "For God (Almighty)'s sake!", unless you're making a serious effort to write in Early/Middle English.