| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Proposal that people who answer questions via the Kudoz system should be obliged to be nice. Thread poster: Michael Beijer
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Paul Cohen 
Greenland
Local time: 07:28
German to English
+ ...
Rolf Kern wrote:
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
Sounds like tough love to me. I don't think I'd go quite that far, Rolf, but I heartily agree that sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
I think it's better to get a reality check from fellow translators than to get egg on your face with your clients. Personally, I'd rather have a lifeguard reel me in before I venture into shark-infested waters.
This is a harsh business -- and yet we can't improve unless we push our limits. That puts many folks in a bit of a bind. To stick with the swimming analogy: Virtually all of us want to venture into deeper water at some point in time, but we may not necessarily know what dangers are lurking out there. It's important to recognize our limits as translators -- both in terms of the amount of work that we take on board and the type of work that we tackle -- and it's not necessarily a bad thing to get feedback on both limitations from respected colleagues (and even the occasional pipe-smoking smart alec).
[Edited at 2010-12-14 00:24 GMT]
| | | | veratek
Brazil
Local time: 05:28
French to English
+ ...
| Are we surprised at the rationalizations? | Dec 13, 2010 |
The last thing people who are jerks, unprofessional, or snotty will ever do is take even a glimpse at the mirror. They are left to rationalize and justify to themselves that behaving any which way their stupid personality problems incites them to is perfectly OK.
If ProZ hadn't put in place a whole structure of moderation on top of three million behavior rules, the site would have fallen apart a long time ago.
In my mind I have awarded every now and then the keenly sou... See more The last thing people who are jerks, unprofessional, or snotty will ever do is take even a glimpse at the mirror. They are left to rationalize and justify to themselves that behaving any which way their stupid personality problems incites them to is perfectly OK.
If ProZ hadn't put in place a whole structure of moderation on top of three million behavior rules, the site would have fallen apart a long time ago.
In my mind I have awarded every now and then the keenly sought over GPL Prize.
(GPL = Greatest ProZ Loser)
Although the moderation system isn't perfect, at least it enables the site to function on a regular basis. One must contact the moderators when there is any kind of problem, no matter how frequent these problems are. And if there is someone who insists on being an ass or a jerk, hey, they are the ones that need to go. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business | Dec 13, 2010 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Hi Ramey, why don't you give us a couple of examples of those offensive comments?
I find this quote more to the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q1dszEFfUk
Being nice is one thing, being professional something completely different. I don't care if an asker is nice or not. As an answerer I expect context and an indication that the asker has done his job before asking and some professionalism. Being nice does not hurt, but if the asker is in my opinion abusing the system and therefore tries to abuse "me", I have never seen any reason to be extremly nice.
Funny enough this meachanism worked very well for several years until the "askers" where put under special protection. I decided to stop answering and I consider it the right decision for me.
[Edited at 2010-12-13 20:57 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-13 20:58 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:28
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | "Translation is a fun business. There is plenty of room for kindness." | Dec 13, 2010 |
"Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness." ???
"Being nice is one thing, being professional something completely different. I don't care if an asker is nice or not." ???
"Tough love." ???
Ha ha, poor guys, sounds like you experience your job differently than I do. Translation is not a tough business. A "tough business" is when someone is shooting at you, or you are hungry. We are a lucky, privileged bunch, and I do not ascribe to the ... See more "Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness." ???
"Being nice is one thing, being professional something completely different. I don't care if an asker is nice or not." ???
"Tough love." ???
Ha ha, poor guys, sounds like you experience your job differently than I do. Translation is not a tough business. A "tough business" is when someone is shooting at you, or you are hungry. We are a lucky, privileged bunch, and I do not ascribe to the stereotypically male viewpoint that I need to be tough to be effective. That's nonsense.
However, I think everything has a way of working out in the end, because the people (or should I say, "grumpy old men"?) that most polite and friendly people would prefer to avoid, have apparently already chosen to stop answering/asking* questions anyway, and have therefore removed themselves without us having to resort to a moderator.
To each his own I suppose.
Michael ▲ Collapse
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Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 01:28
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
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MODERATOR | fun business for those who are nice | Dec 13, 2010 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
"Translation is a fun business. There is plenty of room for kindness."
Indeed, Michael! : ) All I'd like to add is this quote I received today (coincidence?):
Don't worry about this world; it is not broken. And don't worry about others. You worry more about them than they do. There are people waging war; there are people on the battlefield who are more alive than they've ever been before. Don't try to protect people from life; just let them have their experience while you focus upon your own experience.
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In my experience, people (askers and others) who treat the site with professional respect and courtesy and modesty and humility and honesty and friendliness and... will receive the same.
C
| | | | Barry Appleby
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:28
Russian to English
+ ...
| Not just translators | Dec 14, 2010 |
This problem is not specific to Proz.com or to translators as a profession. There are many people in the world who have issues of various kinds and like to vent their frustrations on other people. I've seen this on a good many fora and encountered it personally on Freecylcle while my partner has seen it also on many sites to which she belongs. Technological advances do not change human nature; they merely provide forms of communication which we can used in a positive or negative manner. For the ... See more This problem is not specific to Proz.com or to translators as a profession. There are many people in the world who have issues of various kinds and like to vent their frustrations on other people. I've seen this on a good many fora and encountered it personally on Freecylcle while my partner has seen it also on many sites to which she belongs. Technological advances do not change human nature; they merely provide forms of communication which we can used in a positive or negative manner. For the bullies of this world, the Internet has been a godsend as they can hide their true identities and abuse others at a same distance. On the other hand, a good many people can now work globally to achieve positive changes to a whole raft of important issues. Social skills and treating others with consideration are important in any business. I am relatively new to Proz.com and I found attending the recent conference in Prague a most uplifting experience. It felt very good to meet others with a similar passion for languages and translation and realise that you are not alone. I've had good help from people who answered my questions and I am always happy to provide help and advice to others. I don't mind it people do not always thank me but I draw the line at gratuitous nastiness and spite. It's tough enough working as a translator in a profession where rates have stood still since the late 1980s (at best) without cultivating this macho "dog-eat-dog attitude". At 62, I am still naive enough to believe that unity can be a source of great strength and now we are fortunate enough to have a fine organization to bring us together. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
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| Gentileza gera gentileza | Dec 14, 2010 |
In my "other" profession I learnt more from colleagues than from books... and I learnt a great deal from books. Why should translation be different?
And although I don't think you can oblige people to be nice, maybe you can "spread the disease"...
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:28
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Learning from people | Dec 14, 2010 |
you don't learn from people only when they are being nice; quite the contrary, you can learn more from them when they use a broader cluster of emotions in their interaction than merely "being nice" ( whatever that means). If it means stroking someone's ego just for the sake of it, I'm totally against it. If it implies a cordial professional manner in a natural way, then I support it.
[Edited at 2010-12-14 20:08 GMT]
| | | | Gina W
United States
Local time: 04:28
Member (2003)
French to English
| One of the best suggestions I've heard | Dec 15, 2010 |
I totally agree with you, Michael. There are some people who insist on always making "little comments". Not sure how that qualifies them as professionals, honestly. In my experience, professionals are not just those with experience and knowledge, but also a proper attitude including respect for others. Or if they can't respect others who dare to ask a question (and maybe those people would be happy if there were no KudoZ? I have often wondered), I guess it's too much to ask for them not to c... See more I totally agree with you, Michael. There are some people who insist on always making "little comments". Not sure how that qualifies them as professionals, honestly. In my experience, professionals are not just those with experience and knowledge, but also a proper attitude including respect for others. Or if they can't respect others who dare to ask a question (and maybe those people would be happy if there were no KudoZ? I have often wondered), I guess it's too much to ask for them not to constantly DISrespect askers (or even other answerers, for that matter). I mean at the very least, might they consider that an asker could end up eventually being either a potential client, or refer them to potential clients? Seriously, I know one woman who even emailed me a rude comment (yes, I forwarded it to a moderator), and coincidentally the next day I came across a potential big client in her language pair and specialization. Unfortunately I could not refer her to said potential big client...I mean, who would after that?
JMO. ▲ Collapse
| | | | 784512 (X)
Germany
Local time: 10:28
German to English
+ ...
| [Rant] + can I block someone? | Jan 25, 2011 |
Paul Cohen wrote: Michael, You may or may not notice it on a daily basis, but the moderators normally rapidly move in and very strictly enforce all of the rules behind the scenes. With all the intensive wrist-slapping and cudgeling going on at the site to keep answerers in line, I can only imagine that all these pipe-smoking, dictionary-toting, polyglot know-it-alls who have been translating since 1924 are, in effect, not smug armchair experts at all but actually "slap-me-again,-please-sir/ma'am" masochists if they persist in making critical, personal, non-linguistic remarks in the KudoZ forums. Believe me, they are being severely punished for their sins -- and will probably soon be ejected from the site. Hundreds of sharp-tongued translators have already been sent packing in the past. The other side of the coin, of course, is that there are plenty of good reasons to make the occasional (unwanted?) cautious remark, especially given the scores of questions that grace this site every day from people who are clearly hopelessly out of their depth. In a genuine professional atmosphere where people treat each other like adults, it should be possible, for example, to say something when a person, who is obviously not up to the job, asks loads of medical and/or technical questions for a translation of questionable quality that could lead to somebody taking the wrong dosage of medicine or getting electrocuted. I'll also admit that I'm occasionally very sorely tempted to ask certain folks if they wouldn't prefer to pass the job on to somebody who is actually qualified to do it -- but I resist, I don't get my kicks out of getting pistol-whipped and beaten by the mods -- although I do often wonder if it's professional of us not to say anything at all in situations where the likely outcome may at least be the occupational equivalent of a massive drug overdose and/or electrocution. As answerers we also often run into situations where newbies and oldbies alike ask questions but steadfastly refuse to provide context. This paves the way for a guessing game that nobody can win, although points are ultimately distributed, nonetheless. In fact, there is currently a proposal to oblige askers to provide context. You'll find that thread here: http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/186698-proposal_that_people_who_post_questions_via_the_kudoz_system_be_obliged_to_provide_context.html Have a nice weekend, Paul [Edited at 2010-12-11 00:34 GMT]
Oh I hope you are right! I had a particularly nasty experience today... I shouldn't have let it get to me when an inexperienced (zero KudoZ points, first answer) non-native (of either language, it appears) got very personal. Putting "disagrees" on mine and a collegaue's answer before posting his own, assuming he was correct because he is doing a PhD in comparing legal systems (not, most notably, the British system or Swiss system, the target and source, respectively). He used logic against myself and another that he demanded an exception for when returned back on his own suggestion, severely misspelt his German correction and failed to write a proper noun correctly (not relevant to the point of his trolling, but a comfort for me to express after he was so offensive). He then proceeded to suggest I didn't know enough about the subject and that my mere BA from Leeds meant I didn't know what I was talking about. So my acceptance rate above 50%, 1st in my degree, 3 positive WWAs, KudoZ points, years of experience and (okay, somewhat more controversial) Certified PRO status mean nothing? Suffice to say, I was quite upset and called the moderators in myself.
That aside...
He used personal information against me, so I would really like to block his access to my profile... is that possible?
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:28
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Probably not but.. | Jan 25, 2011 |
Rose Newell wrote:
That aside...
He used personal information against me, so I would really like to block his access to my profile... is that possible?
I don't think that's possible, but if he was getting overly personal, I think you may report him submitting a support ticket. I'm not sure in what way he was being personal but if he somehow jeopardized your profile data or personal data, I think it should be reported.
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| | 784512 (X)
Germany
Local time: 10:28
German to English
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| Just my CV / qualifications... but why ISN'T there a block feature? | Jan 26, 2011 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Rose Newell wrote:
That aside...
He used personal information against me, so I would really like to block his access to my profile... is that possible? I don't think that's possible, but if he was getting overly personal, I think you may report him submitting a support ticket. I'm not sure in what way he was being personal but if he somehow jeopardized your profile data or personal data, I think it should be reported.
I reported it to a moderator who sent me a reassuring message and deleted the most insulting comments from him (and a couple of my mild retaliations).
Since my previous post he and another have been rude again to other translators who agreed on my entry and disagreed/neutral commented on his or this other ProZ member. He also posted a reference as an answer, which is clearly in breach of the rules, so I brought the moderator's attention back to it. He is going to be such a (daisy) any time anything legal comes up in my language combination at this rate...
I don't think the threat is too great, but I'm worried now about how open my CV is... but I suppose, I have a website, so everyone can find my home address anyway... internet security as a freelancer is a general concern.
The guy is obviously new, arrogant and ill-informed on ProZ rules and netiquette, so I doubt anyone will take his comments seriously, but I am worried about someone like that bad-mouthing me to clients... Does it happen? But yes, confidence, a quick look at my profile and his would clear up anyone's opinion.
All that said, he doesn't appear to have found my blog, and that is surely where a (daffodil) would take things next.
Back to the point...
Why isn't there a block feature? Some people get stalkers.... Sometimes life can get risky for translators if they translate something for a big client, or something controversial... especially those involved in court trials. It's a lot of responsibility... Anyone hear about that Spanish-English interpreter in the US who got found out for committing fraud and making deals to fake paperwork right in the court room?
| | | | Marc Cordes
Poland
Local time: 10:28
English to German
+ ...
Rolf Kern wrote:
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
Even though I understand and can somewhat follow the first part of your post, Rolf, I have to say that I am rather shocked about the 2nd part...
Kindness is not directly bound to business or any other facette of life but is a personal choice you apply or choose not to. Without wanting to sound rude I have to say that such a statement says a lot about the character and social capabilities of a person...
If you approach your clients as well as your peers with such harshness in life, this is most likely exactly what you will get in return and therefore business and any other aspect of life might indeed be perceived as just that.......harsh!
It is astounding to see that some still don't seem to understand the basic principles of human interaction be it verbal or non-verbal.
Life is a mirror......have a closer look at yourself.
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