| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | How bad is declining job after accepting it Thread poster: Annett Roessner
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I would really like to understand why Italians and Italian culture are often cited in a negative way, but what have we done? Ok we brought the mafia into the world (actually it's a Sicilian thing, not Italian in general), we have a cumbersome tax system ok. but we have Ferrari, we have the Colosseum, Rome, Florence and Venice, or is it true as they often tell me in Spain that it's because we are "Famous"?. I know a little about the world and I haven't seen any ethical or commercial differences. ... See more I would really like to understand why Italians and Italian culture are often cited in a negative way, but what have we done? Ok we brought the mafia into the world (actually it's a Sicilian thing, not Italian in general), we have a cumbersome tax system ok. but we have Ferrari, we have the Colosseum, Rome, Florence and Venice, or is it true as they often tell me in Spain that it's because we are "Famous"?. I know a little about the world and I haven't seen any ethical or commercial differences. I'd like you to stop, every time I open any thread I find someone who criticizes Italians.
Can we please?
To the OP. I am glad you solved in that way. ▲ Collapse
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
May I remind you of forum rule 5:
'Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed.
Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed.'
It is also not allowed (or politically incorrect) criticizing over and over Italy and Italians as it sounds racist and not only to me.
BTW, I am afraid you did not understand the statement of the member you call "elusive translator" (another racist statement of yours). He just provided an advice.
[Edited at 2023-12-11 09:10 GMT]
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
I would really like to understand why Italians and Italian culture are often cited in a negative way, but what have we done?
Angie Garbarino wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
May I remind you of forum rule 5:
'Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed.
Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed.'
It is also not allowed (or politically incorrect) criticizing over and over Italy and Italians as it sounds racist and not only to me. BTW, I am afraid you did not understand the statement of the member you call "elusive translator" (another racist statement of yours). He just provided an advice.
I am getting seriously worried by the lack of ability demonstrated here by certain translators to read and understand a text without adding their own subjective and incorrect interpretation to it and then accusing the writer of what these translators themselves are imagining. It is unprofessional and it is also disrespectful towards the writer. And it is a breach of the forum rules.
Please quote exactly who criticised Italian culture and where. I most certainly did not. I said I didn't know much about it. Fact.
I did not say anything racist. Fact.
Italians are not a specific race anyway. Even if somebody had criticised Italian culture, which is not the case in this topic for anyone who cares to read and understand what was actually said, it would not be racist.
It was Mario Cerutti who called that Italian translator 'elusive'. Try to read what he said to understand why I used the term. Reading things before commenting on them is such an excellent way of improving communication. As that translator was so obviously not elusive, I quoted it as obvious satire referring to the baseless claim that he was elusive.
There is nothing racist in calling someone elusive, whether or not it is satire. Please try to look up the meanings of 'elusive' and 'racist' in a dictionary before misusing the words.
This is getting tiresome. Now I have been attacked by three Italian colleagues for something I have not said. I seriously hope this unfriendly, unprofessional, nasty, bullying behaviour does not represent Italian culture. What sort of impression do you think your and their behaviour leaves me with?
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To quickly answer to you:
Why did you suppose that the advice of the Italian translator depends on Italian culture?
It is her opinion which has nothing to do with the "Italian culture" which BTW is not the same all over the country.
Answer provided.
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Baran Keki 
Türkiye
Local time: 09:30
Member
English to Turkish
| A Touch of Frost | Dec 11, 2023 |
Hi Thomas,
I hope you are well and have had a nice weekend. Please take it easy, this whole thing may be a misunderstanding (or rather a case of mistaken identity). It's possible that our Italian colleagues here may have confused you with DI Jack Frost, an old school sleuth who is not up to date with wokeness and PC, and has been nasty to his black and female colleagues at times. I suppose 'A Touch of Frost', which is a brilliant series that I've started watching recently, is/was popular ... See more Hi Thomas,
I hope you are well and have had a nice weekend. Please take it easy, this whole thing may be a misunderstanding (or rather a case of mistaken identity). It's possible that our Italian colleagues here may have confused you with DI Jack Frost, an old school sleuth who is not up to date with wokeness and PC, and has been nasty to his black and female colleagues at times. I suppose 'A Touch of Frost', which is a brilliant series that I've started watching recently, is/was popular in Italy, and your name being Frost hasn't gone down well with some people and has created some sort of ('confirmation') bias. Don't let this worry you too much.
Have a nice day! ▲ Collapse
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
Why did you suppose that the advice of the Italian translator depends on Italian culture?
It is her opinion which has nothing to do with the "Italian culture" which BTW is not the same all over the country.
Yes, why would someone's advice or behaviour have anything to do with their culture?
I don't subscribe to the woke school of thought according to which 'we are all the same' and culture where we grow up does not shape us in any way when it so obviously does – even though I know it is heresy for the wokerati to say it.
And so what if there should be a tendency in Italy to avoid being too transparent and use a white lie instead in some situations? I did not criticise that. I said I don't know much about the culture. How can it be criticism not to know something about something? I simply said that in such a case, it would be better to adapt to that when relevant.
But if people want to react emotionally instead of logically and analytically, then we end up with such a nonsensical and aggressive debate as we are having, with several people emotionally accusing me of having said something I demonstrably did not say, being so lost in their own imagination and righteousness that they are unable to see reality clearly. It's a sad state of affairs in an industry where we are supposed to be able to understand source texts to be able to translate them accurately.
Discussing possible cultural differences is not the same as criticising them. Is that really so hard to understand?
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 08:30
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Maybe some people were triggered by words such as "macho", etc. Balkan culture is also considered "macho", and I have no problems with it at all, as it's true. LOL
Yes people are shaped by cultures, but they are equally shaped by subcultures and their families (maybe even more so), so I'd rather view them individually.
I don't blame Thomas for expressing his opinion. I don't blame Italians for getting triggered, they are entitled to it. So, that's it, let's close this c... See more Maybe some people were triggered by words such as "macho", etc. Balkan culture is also considered "macho", and I have no problems with it at all, as it's true. LOL
Yes people are shaped by cultures, but they are equally shaped by subcultures and their families (maybe even more so), so I'd rather view them individually.
I don't blame Thomas for expressing his opinion. I don't blame Italians for getting triggered, they are entitled to it. So, that's it, let's close this chapter.
There were entire novels written here about a rather small point, typical online flaming, where small things get flamed into something huge. But one point I read is what stuck to my mind - are translation agencies always transparent and honest? No, they are not. We as humans are inherently equipped to pick up on cues and read between the lines (yes, even online) so if someone says "their family member is in the hospital and they can't move with the project", and then I get the same or very similar thing from others, I will pick up on cues.
One time, I had three pending invoices from three different agencies that have nothing to do with each other. They were all overdue, so I sent reminders. It looked like in a movie, but I received the SAME excuse from all of them: "Your invoice got stuck and lost among other invoices, apologies." I mean, what are the odds? And yes, I can read between the lines. No, they were not Italian agencies. They were from Western Europe (non-macho countries).
[Edited at 2023-12-11 13:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Baran Keki wrote:
I suppose 'A Touch of Frost', which is a brilliant series that I've started watching recently, is/was popular in Italy.
can you provide a link?
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| | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:30
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Mario Cerutti wrote:
The very brief comment made by an Italian colleague in this post which, in my view, cannot be necessarily interpreted as an intention to promote "opacity", but rather an attempt to sidestep a difficult discussion with the agency in question...
Monica literally said "Never complain, never explain: Tell them you have a personal issue, you can't go on." She clearly intended to "promote opacity". There is no other way to read her comment. I'm not speculating about what she said -- I'm telling what she said.
True, her comment is also a suggestion about how to side-step the difficult discussion. Thomas had no idea whether side-stepping the difficult discussion reflected typical Italian culture or not, though he probably suspected it, which is why he phrased his reply "I can't claim to know much about Italian culture". From where I'm sitting, no-one who is not super sensitive can be offended by that.
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Samuel Murray wrote:
True, her comment is also a suggestion about how to side-step the difficult discussion. Thomas had no idea whether side-stepping the difficult discussion reflected typical Italian culture or not, though he probably suspected it, which is why he phrased his reply "I can't claim to know much about Italian culture". From where I'm sitting, no-one who is not super sensitive can be offended by that.
How come that (just for example) when you express your opinion I have never read "I cannot claim to know Dutch culture" or South African? Instead there is plenty of threads expressing bad opinions over Italians.
Call me over sensitive if you so like but this is only the drop that breaks the camel's back.
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Angie Garbarino wrote:
Instead there is plenty of threads expressing bad opinions over Italians.
Where do you see that? Can you show us some examples? This would obviously not be acceptable, but I have never seen it. Of course, sometimes one may disagree with an Italian or an American or another nationality, but not because of the nationality. You can hardly expect everyone always to agree with Italians just because they are Italians.
Many translators disagreed with the 'elusive' Italian who suggested never to ask the client, giving many reasons for disagreeing. I don't recall anyone criticising him for being Italian.
[Edited at 2023-12-11 16:42 GMT]
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| Not that one | Dec 11, 2023 |
[quote]Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Angie Garbarino wrote:
Instead there is plenty of threads expressing bad opinions over Italians.
Where do you see that? Can you show us some examples? This would obviously not be acceptable, but I have never seen it. Of course, some times one may disagree with an Italian or an American or another nationality, but not because of the nationality. You can hardly expect everyone always to agree with Italians just because they are Italians.
Of course, this is not the point-
Many translators disagreed with the 'elusive' Italian who suggested never to ask the client, giving many reasons for disagreeing. I don't recall anyone criticising him for being Italian.
No, not that post, there are many,
I am going to search them and will post the links. just a minute
| | | | | | Metin Demirel
Türkiye
Local time: 09:30
Member (2018)
Italian to Turkish
+ ...
| who's to decide? | Dec 11, 2023 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I don't subscribe to the woke school of thought according to which 'we are all the same' and culture where we grow up does not shape us in any way when it so obviously does – even though I know it is heresy for the wokerati to say it.
I, for one, am far from the woke culture, but there's one point you're missing. It is up to the offended to decide whether it is offending. Several Italian colleagues have so far expressed their discontent about your comment, but not one single Italian has said anything in support of your explanations. You can philosophize as much as you like, but you cannot evade the fact that your initial comment sits perfectly on a stereotype.
While I am really disturbed with most of the woke rhetoric and ways (which is irrelevant here), I am also disturbed with the ways the opposing discourse seems to favor all the uncivilized manners and style in disguise of being "not woke, just normal."
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