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часть контура
ПМК
Jun 26, 2020 12:20
3 yrs ago
44 viewers *
Russian term

санитары леса

Russian to English Art/Literary General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
Давно хотел задать вопрос коллективному разуму :)

Есть такое выражение (исходно значение - "животные, уничтожающие вредных насекомых, грызунов, сорняки, падаль"), уже давно метафорически перешедшее на людей, уверенных, что они выполняют неприятную (с т.з. морали), но необходимую для общества работу.

Неоднократно не находил ему аналогов в английском. А ведь наверняка же есть! Что думаете?
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 nature's pest control/ forest keepers
3 good predator
2 scavengers
2 forest orderlies
References
balancers

Discussion

Boris Shapiro (asker) Mar 12:
TWIMC I have since encountered 'nature's janitors' (in Jagged Alliance 3 dialogues; Haemimont Games is based in Bulgaria , but their EN texts were impeccably written, so I count it as authentic English usage example) in this precise meaning.
Boris Shapiro (asker) Jun 27, 2020:
Kinda reminds me 'ENFORCER of our LORD GOD, Siiiiir... ULRICH VON LIECHTENSTEIN!!'
Anton Konashenok Jun 27, 2020:
@Misha You are right, and the connotations of "custodian" vary between English-speaking countries, too. I don't quite see a word in English that would fit universally, regardless of geographic or chronological context. However, there is a proper human metaphor here - ideologized serial killers claiming to be "ridding the society of [insert your favorite term of abuse]". Their self-appellations (cleaners/cleansers/whatever) would be a good fit, but one needs to be very careful with the context. Another criminal word with a different meaning yet consistent with the wolves' function in the forest would be "enforcers".
The Misha Jun 27, 2020:
A very keen observation indeed, Anton I guess they are not cuddly little helpers after all:) But "custodians" still doesn't sit right with me - tell that to school custodians or custodian banks (where, maybe not so out of whack with the banks though:))))) Here's your unintended semantic transference galore. Rejuvenators, perhaps? Undertakers? Recyclers? See, there's probably a good reason why there is no such metaphor in English.
Boris Shapiro (asker) Jun 27, 2020:
@Anton Зрите в корень! Всецело согласен с вашей трактовкой значения.
Boris Shapiro (asker) Jun 27, 2020:
@mrrafe Of course there are orderlies in hospitals. It's just that, as Anton astutely noted, there is a strong connotation that precludes the use of such obvious cognates. You don't think of the wolf as a hospital orderly, after all (well, not unless you're deep into the Ken Kesey territory, I imagine).
mrrafe Jun 27, 2020:
orderlies The hospitals where I've been in US have orderlies. I'm not that old!
Anton Konashenok Jun 27, 2020:
Санитары - не совсем санитары Выражение "санитары леса" изначально применялось конкретно к волкам, и речь шла об уничтожении не "вредных насекомых, грызунов, сорняков и падали", а слабых и больных животных. Соответственно, в переносном смысле это выражение несет изрядную долю цинизма, обозначая беспощадного хищника, от которого может спастись только сильная и здоровая особь.
Кроме того, русское слово "санитар" имеет два возможных смысла: "младший медицинский персонал" (это действительно orderly) и "тот, кто занимается санитарией" (в отличие от лечебной медицины), и здесь нужен именно второй вариант - например, в самом буквальном переводе, sanitarian. Или даже eugenicist (в смысле оздоровления популяции жертв). Но конкретный перевод, конечно же, будет сильно зависеть от контекста - в первую очередь от уровня юмора, цинизма и политической корректности исходного текста. Пожалуй, наиболее нейтральный вариант - nature's custodians.
Turdimurod Rakhmanov Jun 26, 2020:
Metaphor should be used here, if for ex: if we use Scavengers, it won't sound the same as in the context. Scavenger is an animal, here it is about the role of those animals.
wildlife managers perhaps?
or any other metaphors would work.
Boris Shapiro (asker) Jun 26, 2020:
@The Misha ZLM, man! :)

How about something along the lines of certain non-prestigious vocations? Trashmen of the society, I dunno.
Boris Shapiro (asker) Jun 26, 2020:
@Mikhail Тут разные можно найти. https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&biw=1280&bih=887&s...
mrrafe Jun 26, 2020:
Haпример "санитаров леса" Thunbergers?
The Misha Jun 26, 2020:
I am not so sure about А ведь наверняка же есть! To be sure, the neutral English word is scavengers as mrrafe suggested. Yet, the "forest orderlies" they are not. This is a purely Russian metaphor and dragging it into English verbatim makes no sense at all. Me, I am thinking in terms of "Santa's little helpers," which could probably be reworked to fit a particular context, except helpers that they are, they would not be Santa's, naturally. Then there's the issue of how politically correct killing all those pests is these days, because, naturally, their lives matter too (just ask Greta:). It seems the only two species that could still be killed with impunity and no mental anguish are zombies and white people. Oops, never mind that last one.
Mikhail Kropotov Jun 26, 2020:
Полагаю, неслучайно не находили аналогов. Natural pest control вполне подходит для "прямого" смысла, который и так весьма образен, но это совсем не то же самое, что переносный / метафорический. Думаю, надо выбрать что-то одно.

Кстати, а Вы могли бы привести пример употребления на русском "санитаров леса" в этом метафорическом варианте?

Proposed translations

+1
1 hr
Selected

nature's pest control/ forest keepers

In regard to animals, this is called “natural pest control.” You could say that certain predators/scavengers act as “nature’s pest control.” I’m not sure how you’d tie people into as they’re just called pest controllers/pest control, but this refers to them doing so professionally. If they’re just doing it while working in their garden or something, then it might also be natural pest control as humans are also animals and are just doing this as part of improving their habitat. If you’re speaking more figuratively, you could try forest keepers, but that’s if you’re writing something like “certain predators act as forest keepers, naturally ridding it of termites, rodents, and other creatures harmful to the ecosystem.”

Here’s an article exploring this just:
https://www.thespruce.com/animals-aid-in-pest-control-265625...

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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-26 13:54:37 GMT)
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Yeah, I think I missed your intention here. Do you mean like "nature destroyers"? Also, "human pest control" sounds like something that would kill humans or certain humans considered pests...

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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-26 14:07:00 GMT)
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Hmm, I feel like those people are now called Nazis...Maybe, "nature's little purifiers" or "nature's little helpers". Now, I get what Misha was talking about in the chat. I'll think about it some more.

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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-26 14:10:58 GMT)
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You know, I kind of like "nature's little Nazi's," as the term "Nazi" has expanded beyond its original meaning.

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Note added at 1 hr (2020-06-26 14:11:48 GMT)
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*nature's little Nazis (rouge apostrophe)

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Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-26 14:21:12 GMT)
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I didn't realize you're trying to call yourself this. I just keep missing and missing the point. Nature's little helpers works as long as you expand on the mission statement, but with the tramp camp example, it sounds like you're being Darwin's little helpers...Nature's Nazi (like grammar Nazi), nature's Brita (filter), sounds a lot like eugenics. Ok, sorry, I'm done.

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Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-26 14:24:21 GMT)
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Oh, oh, nature's watchdogs or forest watchdogs!

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Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-26 14:24:54 GMT)
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And forest keepers is an actual thing: https://forestkeeper.org/mission

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Note added at 2 hrs (2020-06-26 14:35:50 GMT)
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Oh ok, thank god! Yeah, the term is used often and environmental watchdogs are aplenty.

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Note added at 1 day 2 hrs (2020-06-27 14:44:52 GMT) Post-grading
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Thanks, Boris! Happy to help! I think we forgot guardians and candy strippers, but covered a lot of ground nevertheless. Pretty safe to say coming up with the equivalent is up to you, as it just doesn't seem to exist in English.
Note from asker:
Ah, perhaps I was being uncharacteristically delicate. The thing is, more often than not, the 'pests' in question are of the bipedal variety. Perhaps 'human pest control' is just about blunt enough to fit the intended meaning!
That is, indeed, one of the possible intended meanings. Think juvenile punks setting a tramps' camp on fire.
Nah, I think calling oneself a Nazi is slightly counterintuitive to the whole 'we're the necessary evil' self-image. 'Nature's little helpers', on the other hand, can be spot on. All the more sinister.
I am definitely NO planning on calling myself any of this. But 'watchdogs' is very good, too! Kinda jives with a certain videogame I'm translating ATM. They have a faction of enemy collaborators there who track down people with superpowers, and its called Watchdogs.
Peer comment(s):
agree mrrafe : I like custodians or keepers - it's a little poetic, and humorously ironic if they might be destroyers
33 mins
Thanks mrrafe! Keepers/watchdogs/guardians, they all sound natural and work.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much, Katya! This has been a most fruitful little brainstorming session. I particularly liked the 'human pest control' we sort of invented together, and 'nature's little helpers' (ditto for you and The Misha), with possible situational usage of 'watchdogs' with some kind of modifier, too."
20 mins

scavengers

I don't know any perfect EN metaphor.

Scavengers can be animals or humans.

Animal or human Scavengers can eat dead plants and animals but not insects or rodents. Human scavengers can collect things instead of eating them. Most humans eat dead meat but it is not considered scavenging.
Note from asker:
Alas, however straightforward, the literal translation lacks the transferred meaning I mentioned above.
Something went wrong...
19 mins

forest orderlies

Если нужен перевод этого понятия в его исходном значении.

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Note added at 20 мин (2020-06-26 12:41:47 GMT)
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Forest orderlies: birds, ants and wolves

Forest orderlies are animals that can clean their own habitat with their actions. And let their behavior be caused only by instincts developed over the long years of evolution, yet their role in the region’s ecosystem cannot be underestimated. But who are they?
https://who-knows.github.io/articles/C37883/index.html
Note from asker:
Олег, спасибо, но слишком буквально. Вне контекста больниц orderly в значении "A man whose constant work it is to keep the streets clean" последний раз употреблялось где-нибудь XIX веке. Настолько древнее значение, что только OED его знает. А автор текста по ссылке (как и большинства копирующих это выражение) - наш с вами соотечественник, не носитель языка, увы.
Peer comment(s):
neutral mrrafe : sylvan hygienists?
2 mins
Thank you for another option.
Something went wrong...
1 hr

good predator

Или вы просто санитар леса?
Or are you just being a good predator? https://context.reverso.net/перевод/русский-английский/санит...
Note from asker:
Интересно. Но я не смотрел "Элементарно". Там по контексту точно то имеется в виду?
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Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

balancers

I would say:
Balancers or wildlife (nature) managers

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Note added at 3 hrs (2020-06-26 16:14:59 GMT)
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Ecosystem balancers: https://books.google.kg/books?id=KS6BDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT156&lpg=P...

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Note added at 4 hrs (2020-06-26 16:24:16 GMT)
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The context is about the specific role of specific animals, general approach like "forest keeper or helpers" won't work here. It is too general. It doesn't specify the meaning"санитары леса" their ecosystem balancing function or role.
Note from asker:
Does it worry you that OED dates the latest example of such usage of 'balancer' 1795 A.D.?
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