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Off topic: 泰晤士(TIMES)四合院儿
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David Lin  Identity Verified
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只是一点考虑 May 5, 2014

J.H. Wang wrote:

QHE wrote:

Saint Augustine 也说 过:
“How can the past and future be, when the past no longer is, and the future is not yet? As for the present, if it were always present and never moved on to become the past, it would not be time, but eternity.”


我对圣奥古斯丁其实了解并不太多,不过,也知道他是位大哲学家。下面我尝试把他这段文字翻译成中文,供大家参考:

既然过去已不存在,未来尚未存在,那么过去和未来怎么能够存在?至于现在,如果它永远是现在,从不前进而成为过去,它就不会是时间,而是永恒。

欢迎大家拍砖!:-)


一点考虑:

过去 -> 现在 -> 未来

将时间描述为从 ‘现在’ 向前走,即进入 ‘未来’ ,应该不会成为 ’过去‘ 吧。例如:今日的 10 点向前走了 12 小時成為明日的 10 点。

还有,move on 是 ‘改变’ ,应该不是 ’前进‘?

这样全句会容易明白一点吗?

”至于现在,如果它永远是现在,从来不会成为过去,它就不会是时间,而是永恒。“

借此送上威尔士名诗人 Henry Vaughan (1621-1695)关于 ’永恒‘ 的作品,一个曾经死而后生的感槪。

I saw Eternity the other night,
Like a great ring of pure and endless light,
All calm, as it was bright;
And round beneath it, Time in hours, days,
years,
Driv'n by the spheres
Like a vast shadow moved; in which the
world
And all her train were hurled.

我们可以看到永恒吗?


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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时间是... May 5, 2014

时间是...

- 烧完一炷香 - 老太太是虔诚佛教徒,没有手表,女儿不幸自杀死了,到坟场焚香拜祭送她最后一程。有人问老太太什么时候完成这个仪式。她告诉翻译说,只需这么长的时间就够了。

- 待天空的飞机拉完线 - 不会看手表的小孩在草地玩得忘了形,不想回家。于是妈妈指著蓝色一片无云的天空,一台飞机正放出两条直直的白色水蒸气,说,当飞机不拉面线时,就要回家咯。

- 老师说的 - 小时候考试,老师说时间到了,所有人都要停笔!

- 初春撒在地上的种子冒芽了 - 一颗种子通常需要起码两至三周的时间,经过不停的浇水滋润才会发芽,从泥土冒出头来。

- 沙滩上的足印 - 一对热恋中的恋人在潮退的沙滩上赤足散步,一起享受浪漫的晨曦。他们留下了长长一排并列的四个脚印。当潮张时他们回去看的时候,发觉他们的足印全消失了。

- 我是关云长 - 在精神康复院里,一个英国病人对著中国病人说,我是乔治布希 I am George Bush。那个中国人马上对他说,我是关云长。旁边的心理医生很好奇,小声问翻译,谁是关云祥?

[Edited at 2014-05-05 22:29 GMT]


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QHE
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院落 May 6, 2014

wherestip wrote:

That 龙安志 character owns 3 of those properties! Seems like he also likes to acquire multiples when he sees the ingenuity in something. As mentioned a couple of times before, I do too; the difference between us, I guess, is he goes for the big ticket items.


假设一下,如果真的拥有这3个大院儿,可以推测 2 1/2 - 2 3/4 的院落要为贮藏之用; 可能 还 需雇用院内谷哥。所以还是拥有3个 MacBooks 比较省事。

BTW, 我看了”话说四合院”才知道,北京人在院子里种树还有忌讳(只知道在南方过年屋里要放一大盆金桔)。以前我还给人建议过在院里种松柏:四季常青,不用扫落叶。而且上次回国还追问人家种了没有。


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QHE
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Present May 6, 2014

Present
David Lin wrote:
J.H. Wang wrote:
QHE wrote:

Saint Augustine 也说 过:
“How can the past and future be, when the past no longer is, and the future is not yet? As for the present, if it were always present and never moved on to become the past, it would not be time, but eternity.”


我对圣奥古斯丁其实了解并不太多,不过,也知道他是位大哲学家。下面我尝试把他这段文字翻译成中文,供大家参考:

既然过去已不存在,未来尚未存在,那么过去和未来怎么能够存在?至于现在,如果它永远是现在,从不前进而成为过去,它就不会是时间,而是永恒。

欢迎大家拍砖!:-)


一点考虑:
过去 -> 现在 -> 未来
将时间描述为从 ‘现在’ 向前走,即进入 ‘未来’ ,应该不会成为 ’过去‘ 吧。例如:今日的 10 点向前走了 12 小時成為明日的 10 点。
还有,move on 是 ‘改变’ ,应该不是 ’前进‘?



是的, “never moved on to become the past” 译为 “从来不会成为过去” 要比 ”从不前进而成为过去” 合乎逻辑。

另外我理解, “if it were always present” 是持续地”呈现”(occurring), 始终如一的意思 。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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迷信 May 6, 2014

QHE wrote:

BTW, 我看了”话说四合院”才知道,北京人在院子里种树还有忌讳(只知道在南方过年屋里要放一大盆金桔)。以前我还给人建议过在院里种松柏:四季常青,不用扫落叶。而且上次回国还追问人家种了没有。



是啊! 视频里提到 “桑松柏梨槐,不进府王宅”,解释为 “桑”、“梨” 与 “丧”、“离” 谐音,“槐” 中有 “鬼”,却没有说明白 “松柏” 有什么忌讳。 网上查了一下,原来是嫌阴气重、像墓地。

虽说是迷信,但我想 知道了有这个讲法,人一般 当然不会自己跟自己过不去。 ...


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J.H. Wang
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多谢了! May 6, 2014

wherestip wrote:

J.H. Wang wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

What are days for?
Days are where we live.
They come, they wake us
Time and time over.
They are to be happy in:
Where can we live but days?

Ah, solving that question
Brings the priest and the doctor
In their long coats
Running over the fields.

《日子》

日子是幹什麼用的?
日子是我們活著的地方。
它們到臨,它們一次又一次地
喚醒我們。
它們是要快樂度過的:
除了日子我們還能活在那裡?

啊,為了解答這個問題
使得牧師和醫生
穿著長長的外袍
在田野上奔跑。

--菲利浦‧拉金--


这里的 doctor 的翻译是否有问题? doctor 这里是否应为博学之士而不是医生,否则感觉有点怪怪的。

另外,他们为什么要穿着长袍在田野上奔跑,是否他们有在田野里思考的习惯?

向各位请教,先谢谢了!



J.H.,

Medical doctors traditionally made house calls to assist in emergencies, illnesses, minor ailments, trauma, and so on. And so did priests - to read those on their deathbeds their last rites, for example. Hence they ran over the fields to either come to the rescue or perform their perfunctory duties, whichever might be the case.



https://humanpractice.com/blog/posts/history-of-the-house-call

by Heidi Siegrist
MARCH 17, 2014



...

Remembering the traditional house call


Up until the 20th century, the majority of primary care doctors saw patients in their homes, and even in 1940, 40% of family physicians regularly made house calls. Those who can remember a time when house calls were common often remember them with nostalgia: patients were able to remain at home where they felt comfortable, and never had to sit in waiting rooms where they worried about catching an illness.

Meanwhile doctors, although spending considerably more time on the road, were able to interact with patients on a more personal level and gained a better sense of their overall well-being. Seeing patients as individuals with full lives made the work, for some doctors, more fulfilling.

This intimacy, though, was a fading dynamic of a fading world--as more doctors entered specialties rather than family practice and insurance policies shifted, the house call became less and less common. By 1980, the number of house calls had dropped to just 1%.

...



priest -- one's spiritual needs, spiritual salvation
doctor -- one's physical well-being, physical salvation


[Edited at 2014-05-05 20:05 GMT]


我觉得您的这种解释有道理,是我对历史知识比较缺乏,呵呵。


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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四君子 May 6, 2014

QHE wrote:

wherestip wrote:

That 龙安志 character owns 3 of those properties! Seems like he also likes to acquire multiples when he sees the ingenuity in something. As mentioned a couple of times before, I do too; the difference between us, I guess, is he goes for the big ticket items.


假设一下,如果真的拥有这3个大院儿,可以推测 2 1/2 - 2 3/4 的院落要为贮藏之用; 可能 还 需雇用院内谷哥。所以还是拥有3个 MacBooks 比较省事。

BTW, 我看了”话说四合院”才知道,北京人在院子里种树还有忌讳(只知道在南方过年屋里要放一大盆金桔)。以前我还给人建议过在院里种松柏:四季常青,不用扫落叶。而且上次回国还追问人家种了没有。


要四季常青,不用扫落叶,他们可能会宁愿选四君子之一的 ‘竹’。真的如 Steve 所说,在中国的墓地种了很多松柏,可能除了迷信所谓阳气重之外,松柏亦代表常绿延年、有长生福乐之意也不一定。


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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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医生比喻科学 May 6, 2014

J.H. Wang wrote:

What are days for?
Days are where we live.
They come, they wake us
Time and time over.
They are to be happy in:
Where can we live but days?

Ah, solving that question
Brings the priest and the doctor
In their long coats
Running over the fields.

《日子》

日子是幹什麼用的?
日子是我們活著的地方。
它們到臨,它們一次又一次地
喚醒我們。
它們是要快樂度過的:
除了日子我們還能活在那裡?

啊,為了解答這個問題
使得牧師和醫生
穿著長長的外袍
在田野上奔跑。

--菲利浦‧拉金--

这里的 doctor 的翻译是否有问题? doctor 这里是否应为博学之士而不是医生,否则感觉有点怪怪的。

另外,他们为什么要穿着长袍在田野上奔跑,是否他们有在田野里思考的习惯?

向各位请教,先谢谢了!

是诗,当然有多重意义,不能绝对论定,但文学老师一般是这样解释的:日子究竟是什么东西是一种大的哲学问题,适合每个人自己去琢磨琢磨。科学和宗教却连忙宣传自己独有的答案。拉金觉得两者都很教条,因此创造了这个讽刺的场景,身穿长袍在田野中跑来跑去确实有点不雅。但他们就是紧张,问起这个问题来,他们都不希望我们自己去独立思考,所以赶过来好好教育我们。


说翻译有问题,我觉得问题不大,不过译者可能不够注意到brings一词:bring someone running 就给了比较强的方向感,两者都向我们这里跑来。看中文,“使得...在田野上奔跑",感觉他们没有目的地瞎跑,但原文却告诉我们他们在赶过来。

[Edited at 2014-05-06 09:42 GMT]

第二次修编:刚看到Steve写的”poem about mortality" - 这样子解读很有意思。人正要死去,正要发现“除了日子外我们还有什么地方可以住呢”,所以牧师和医生赶来了,医生要救你,牧师要指路让你去天堂!

David Lin wrote:

I saw Eternity the other night,
Like a great ring of pure and endless light,
All calm, as it was bright;
And round beneath it, Time in hours, days,
years,
Driv'n by the spheres
Like a vast shadow moved; in which the
world
And all her train were hurled.

我们可以看到永恒吗?

现在可以吧,往星星一看,那是多少年前的光,往星间天空着眼,那是跟宇宙一样老的黑暗。

[Edited at 2014-05-06 10:01 GMT]


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J.H. Wang
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我们该如何理解 move on 呢 May 6, 2014

David Lin wrote:


”至于现在,如果它永远是现在,从来不会成为过去,它就不会是时间,而是永恒。“



这样翻译的话,的确更简练了,而且读起来也更通顺了,当然意思也没错。不过,我们是不是可以把 move on 这样的字眼翻译出来呢?


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J.H. Wang
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这种理解也很有启发性 May 6, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

所以赶过来好好教育我们。


其实,要想正确解读一首诗,应该对诗人以及诗的创作背景有较多的了解才行。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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This person's interpretation is similar to mine May 6, 2014

http://www.allinfo.org.uk/levelup/days.htm



Days

What are days for?
Days are where we live.
They come, they wake us
Time and time over.
They are to be happy in:
Where can we live but days?

Ah, solving that question
Brings the priest and the doctor
In their long coats
Running over the fields.

Analysis

This poem opens with a simple interrogative, "what are days for?" the type of abstract question that only a heuristic child can ask. The next few lines are the type of answer a parent might give, a simple solution to what appears a simple question. “Days are where we live,” and the next lines almost personify the concept of ‘days’ to make them easier to relate to, “They come, they wake us.”

In the simple phrase, “Time and time over” is conveyed their eternalness, and by contrast, the transient nature of humans. Only by grouping humans as “us” can we compare in continuity to “days”, and the poem hints towards the darker, deeper message. Further, “They are to be happy in” is simple on the surface, but raises a question of “but”… and “what if we aren’t happy”. The simplistic answer begins to crumble once we begin to examine it, and the persona realises this as he begins to question himself: “Where can we live but days?”

Moving into the second stanza, the poem presents the surreal image of the “priest and the doctor / In their long coats / Running over the fields” as an attempt to “solve” what has become a puzzle, though in the use of “solving” in the first line, the poem suggests there isn’t a solution. The idea of the priest “and” doctor present two different attitudes towards the alternative to days, which we now realise, is death. The priest hurries to perform the last rites, to speed the person to a better dayless existence, while the doctor moves to try to help a person remain in “days”. Both consider themselves as saving, yet from the “long coat”, a vaguely threatening image (see ‘Toads Revisited’), suggests the persona receives no comfort from either.

Overall, the poem presents no solution to the question of days. Simplistic, apparent answers crumble when examined closely, while other solutions are surreal and threatening. “Days” we can say, however, are the containers for our lives – much like the idea of rooms in other poems like ‘Mr Bleaney’ – and without them, we have death.




I agree with what Phil's saying also. The mood of the poem is indeed cynical to some degree in the sense that an age-old wonder sets in motion the social elite (religion and science) assuming an authoritative position in explaining the unknown.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Another poet George Macbeth's interpretation May 6, 2014

http://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/1999/05/days-philip-larkin.html



Another mysteriously beautiful and intensely thought-provoking little
vignette; the simple, straightforward words seem to hint at some intense
revelation that's just out of sight, but which throws its shadow over
the printed page, dark and foreboding...

I sometimes wonder how poems such as this one come to be composed...
although the final product is precisely and carefully detailed, there's
nothing 'constructed' about the theme, or about Larkin's way of
approaching it... oh well, call it the Muse, I suppose.

thomas.

George Macbeth has this to say about today's poem:

('Days' is) a simple, direct-looking poem about time and death... the
one concrete detail, the 'long coats' of the priest and the doctor,
brings the poem to life with a sinister vividness... [it] seems to be
aiming at a plain, timeless quality very different from the practical
everyday flavour of most of Larkin's poetry...





~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_MacBeth

George Mann MacBeth (19 January 1932 – 16 February 1992) was a Scottish poet and novelist. He was born in Shotts, Lanarkshire.
When he was three, his family moved to Sheffield. He was educated in Sheffield at King Edward VII School where he was Head Prefect in 1951 (photo), before going up to New College, Oxford, with an Open Scholarship in Classics.
He joined BBC Radio on graduating in 1955 from the University of Oxford. He worked there, as a producer of programmes on poetry, notably for the BBC Third Programme, until 1976. He was a member of The Group.



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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Another analysis that in my view is quite pessimistic on human existence May 6, 2014

I'm not sure I agree with the analysis of this one. But it's worth a read ...

http://eraofcasualfridays.net/2011/04/19/what-are-days-for/


BTW, he interprets "doctors" as theologians as J.H. suggested. That, IMO, indeed could be a valid interpretation.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Another opinion worth noting ... May 6, 2014

http://books.google.com/books?id=dR1K8lT1_LsC&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=interpretation%20of%20"brings%20the%20priest%20and%20the%20doctor"&source=bl&ots=YK_6X5M8W6&sig=_Xg2Tl9SFvLGkyOt4I8qT_8Q6zo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VhFpU5bBGoKhyASZqYHoDg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=interpretation%20of%20"brings%20the%20priest%20and%20the%20doctor"&f=false

... but more from an angle of how some pieces of literature are frequently misinterpreted.


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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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Why I hated Eng Lit at school May 6, 2014

Those are lovely links, Steve. All great readings of the poem. This was why I hated English at school, and the literature I did in other languages: they always wanted you to pick one interpretation. Either they taught you the "correct" reading, or if it was a progressive teacher, you could try your own reading, which you could then defend in an essay. But I never wanted to choose! It's not the choosing that makes the poem work, it's the accepting of other alternatives!

I was bemused for a moment by QHE's suggestion above about the word "present" in the sense of 呈现, but he's right. I hadn't seen that reading, but it's definitely there. And now my reading of that passage is better, because I see more in it. We become better readers and better translators by allowing more meanings in (within limits!), not by deciding which one is right.

Of course, that applies more to literature than to other genres.


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